The Chess Thread

[bachfiend]

I disagree. I think the minimum defining feature of "sport" is the aspect of competition for recognition. If you win a game, you don't get anything except for the satisfaction of having won. Winning at sport carries a stake.

This is why in my opinion a given pastime could be either a sport or a game.

So an informal pick-up baseball game among friends where winning is secondary to having fun in the fresh air is not "sport"?

During the brief year that I rode a road bicycle I belonged to a cycling club. We had irregular club bike rides out in the countryside. We'd have a destination, but no competition: We all went at the pace of the slowest rider. Was that "sport"? It certainly wasn't a "game" by any definition.

ETA:

I think that a pick-up baseball game where winning is secondary to having fun; a group bicycle ride where everybody goes at the pace of the slowest rider; a recreational canoe paddle where a boatload of people paddle for fun and exercise and each person just paddles as hard as they feel like, are all sports. They're just not competitive sports.

I think your two examples are games, not sport.  There's no competition, and no winners, even if there is physical exertion involved.  They're play, not tests of superiority.

To give a non-human example; I often take my dog down to the local park for my dog to meet and socialise with other dogs.  The dogs often play with each other, often involving chases - one dog chases another, and then they swap, and if one dog is too fast then it will deliberately slow down to give the other a chance to catch up.. they run so fast it's enough to make their owners feel tired.  Are they playing sport?  At the end, they're so exhausted they just collapse to get their breath back again.  Or is it a game?

[daniel1948]

I disagree with the attitude that says that competition is what defines a sport.

Recreational canoe paddling, for example, is not a game. There are no rules or objective. It's just being active for fun and fitness. It is a sport. It's just not a competitive sport.

[arthwollipot]

Recreational canoe paddling, for example, is not a game. There are no rules or objective. It's just being active for fun and fitness. It is a sport. It's just not a competitive sport.

If there are no rules or objectives, it's neither a game nor a sport. It's just a pastime. A hobby, perhaps.

Thinking about this a little more, I think I see a heirarchy: all sports are games, but not all games are sports. A game where there is some kind of reward or recognition for winning is a sport.

[bachfiend]

I disagree with the attitude that says that competition is what defines a sport.

Recreational canoe paddling, for example, is not a game. There are no rules or objective. It's just being active for fun and fitness. It is a sport. It's just not a competitive sport.

What if you're competing against yourself?  Suppose a distance in your canoe that would normally take you 60 minutes one day (with no unusual water or wind conditions) takes you only 50 minutes, wouldn't you feel pleased?  Or if it takes you 90 minutes wouldn't you feel unhappy?

[daniel1948]

I disagree with the attitude that says that competition is what defines a sport.

Recreational canoe paddling, for example, is not a game. There are no rules or objective. It's just being active for fun and fitness. It is a sport. It's just not a competitive sport.

What if you're competing against yourself?  Suppose a distance in your canoe that would normally take you 60 minutes one day (with no unusual water or wind conditions) takes you only 50 minutes, wouldn't you feel pleased?  Or if it takes you 90 minutes wouldn't you feel unhappy?

In fact, whether it's paddling these days, or jogging when I used to be able to do that, there are days when I'm stronger and go faster, and days when I'm tired and go slower. I don't feel pleased about the one or unhappy about the other. I use it to assess my fitness and my tiredness level, and to judge when I need a rest day.

My goal is not to try to go faster. My goal is to exercise in a way that maintains my health and fitness, and at 75 it is inevitable that I will continue to slow down. I am not going to set any personal bests, and to attempt it would be to guarantee injury. Sports can be fun when winning is not a consideration.

And I resent anybody saying that recreational paddling is not a sport just because it's not competitive. There are competitive sports, and there are non-competitive sports. The latter won't be in the Olympics because the corrupt drug-ridden Olympics is all about winning gold medals and making money for the promoters. But the IOC doesn't get to define "sports," it only gets to decide what games to include in its for-profit enterprise. Non-competitive sports are the healthiest ones, both emotionally and physically: Emotionally because we support each other when we cooperate rather than compete, and physically because training for absolute peak performance leads to injuries.

[bachfiend]

I disagree with the attitude that says that competition is what defines a sport.

Recreational canoe paddling, for example, is not a game. There are no rules or objective. It's just being active for fun and fitness. It is a sport. It's just not a competitive sport.

What if you're competing against yourself?  Suppose a distance in your canoe that would normally take you 60 minutes one day (with no unusual water or wind conditions) takes you only 50 minutes, wouldn't you feel pleased?  Or if it takes you 90 minutes wouldn't you feel unhappy?

In fact, whether it's paddling these days, or jogging when I used to be able to do that, there are days when I'm stronger and go faster, and days when I'm tired and go slower. I don't feel pleased about the one or unhappy about the other. I use it to assess my fitness and my tiredness level, and to judge when I need a rest day.

My goal is not to try to go faster. My goal is to exercise in a way that maintains my health and fitness, and at 75 it is inevitable that I will continue to slow down. I am not going to set any personal bests, and to attempt it would be to guarantee injury. Sports can be fun when winning is not a consideration.

And I resent anybody saying that recreational paddling is not a sport just because it's not competitive. There are competitive sports, and there are non-competitive sports. The latter won't be in the Olympics because the corrupt drug-ridden Olympics is all about winning gold medals and making money for the promoters. But the IOC doesn't get to define "sports," it only gets to decide what games to include in its for-profit enterprise. Non-competitive sports are the healthiest ones, both emotionally and physically: Emotionally because we support each other when we cooperate rather than compete, and physically because training for absolute peak performance leads to injuries.

Sigh - this discussion is getting ridiculous just because I noted that FIDE regards chess to be a sport, not a game, and as a result they can ban transgender women from participating in women-only competitions, which I said was ridiculous in the other thread, and which I stated I disagreed with in this thread too.

Chess is not a sport.  It's a game, which many people take very seriously.

[daniel1948]

... Chess is not a sport.  It's a game, which many people take very seriously.

Agreed.

(But some folks here seem to think it's a "sport" because there's competition, and there are winners and losers.)

[arthwollipot]

... Chess is not a sport.  It's a game, which many people take very seriously.

Agreed.

(But some folks here seem to think it's a "sport" because there's competition, and there are winners and losers.)

As I said before, I think it's both. It's a game when played casually between friends, but it is also an organised sport.

Here's another possible factor of demarcation: Professionals do not play games. If there are people playing it professionally, then when they're doing so, it's a sport.

[daniel1948]

... Chess is not a sport.  It's a game, which many people take very seriously.

Agreed.

(But some folks here seem to think it's a "sport" because there's competition, and there are winners and losers.)

As I said before, I think it's both. It's a game when played casually between friends, but it is also an organised sport.

Here's another possible factor of demarcation: Professionals do not play games.

Sure they do. They play games for money. Professional football matches are called "football games." American fans of football will ask each other "Did you catch the game last night?"

... If there are people playing it professionally, then when they're doing so, it's a sport.

Sports can be games. Games can be sports. But not all games are sports, and not all sports are games. All three of the activities called "football" are games which are sports, and can be professional, amateur, or casual. Bicycling is a sport, but not a game. It can be professional, amateur, or casual. Chess is a game, but not a sport. It can be professional, amateur, or casual. Sometimes the lines are not clear. I personally do not consider the game of ping-pong to be a sport, but I understand the view of people who feel that it is. It can be professional, amateur, or casual.

[Guillermo]

I might be a bit late with this discussion but. By definition, a Sport is a Game. Not all games are sports. But Game is the all-encompassing definition. Any game can become a sport. Competitive tic-tac-toe anyone?

That's why everybody says, "Hey, let's go watch the game!"

So, saying that Chess is not a Game, is absurd. It is a game, it is also a sport.

And to further add. The word sport is so poorly defined, that it is almost abstract, just like art.

[gcason]

... Chess is not a sport.  It's a game, which many people take very seriously.

Agreed.

(But some folks here seem to think it's a "sport" because there's competition, and there are winners and losers.)

As I said before, I think it's both. It's a game when played casually between friends, but it is also an organised sport.

Here's another possible factor of demarcation: Professionals do not play games.

Sure they do. They play games for money. Professional football matches are called "football games." American fans of football will ask each other "Did you catch the game last night?"

... If there are people playing it professionally, then when they're doing so, it's a sport.

Sports can be games. Games can be sports. But not all games are sports, and not all sports are games. All three of the activities called "football" are games which are sports, and can be professional, amateur, or casual. Bicycling is a sport, but not a game. It can be professional, amateur, or casual. Chess is a game, but not a sport. It can be professional, amateur, or casual. Sometimes the lines are not clear. I personally do not consider the game of ping-pong to be a sport, but I understand the view of people who feel that it is. It can be professional, amateur, or casual.

Once ESPN started showing poker tournaments, all the definitions when out the window! 

[daniel1948]

... Chess is not a sport.  It's a game, which many people take very seriously.

Agreed.

(But some folks here seem to think it's a "sport" because there's competition, and there are winners and losers.)

As I said before, I think it's both. It's a game when played casually between friends, but it is also an organised sport.

Here's another possible factor of demarcation: Professionals do not play games.

Sure they do. They play games for money. Professional football matches are called "football games." American fans of football will ask each other "Did you catch the game last night?"

... If there are people playing it professionally, then when they're doing so, it's a sport.

Sports can be games. Games can be sports. But not all games are sports, and not all sports are games. All three of the activities called "football" are games which are sports, and can be professional, amateur, or casual. Bicycling is a sport, but not a game. It can be professional, amateur, or casual. Chess is a game, but not a sport. It can be professional, amateur, or casual. Sometimes the lines are not clear. I personally do not consider the game of ping-pong to be a sport, but I understand the view of people who feel that it is. It can be professional, amateur, or casual.

Once ESPN started showing poker tournaments, all the definitions when out the window! 

A lot of people enjoy watching other people play games. Some of those games are sports, and others are not. Poker can be exciting if there's a lot of money at stake. ESPN can show whatever they like, and they can call themselves a sports network, but that doesn't make poker a sport. (Poker is a bluffing game, and bluffing is a skill. It's ridiculous to call it a game of chance.)

BTW, I enjoy looking at great chess games, but not in real time. Years ago I used to play out games from a book. Nowadays there are websites and you can select a game, and then click through it at your own pace. It's fun to try to figure out what the grandmaster's next move will be.

I don't much care for watching lighting chess games, of which there are many on YouTube: They go too fast for me to follow. And pressing pause/resume constantly is annoying.

[bachfiend]

... Chess is not a sport.  It's a game, which many people take very seriously.

Agreed.

(But some folks here seem to think it's a "sport" because there's competition, and there are winners and losers.)

As I said before, I think it's both. It's a game when played casually between friends, but it is also an organised sport.

Here's another possible factor of demarcation: Professionals do not play games.

Sure they do. They play games for money. Professional football matches are called "football games." American fans of football will ask each other "Did you catch the game last night?"

... If there are people playing it professionally, then when they're doing so, it's a sport.

Sports can be games. Games can be sports. But not all games are sports, and not all sports are games. All three of the activities called "football" are games which are sports, and can be professional, amateur, or casual. Bicycling is a sport, but not a game. It can be professional, amateur, or casual. Chess is a game, but not a sport. It can be professional, amateur, or casual. Sometimes the lines are not clear. I personally do not consider the game of ping-pong to be a sport, but I understand the view of people who feel that it is. It can be professional, amateur, or casual.

Once ESPN started showing poker tournaments, all the definitions when out the window! 

A lot of people enjoy watching other people play games. Some of those games are sports, and others are not. Poker can be exciting if there's a lot of money at stake. ESPN can show whatever they like, and they can call themselves a sports network, but that doesn't make poker a sport. (Poker is a bluffing game, and bluffing is a skill. It's ridiculous to call it a game of chance.)

BTW, I enjoy looking at great chess games, but not in real time. Years ago I used to play out games from a book. Nowadays there are websites and you can select a game, and then click through it at your own pace. It's fun to try to figure out what the grandmaster's next move will be.

I don't much care for watching lighting chess games, of which there are many on YouTube: They go too fast for me to follow. And pressing pause/resume constantly is annoying.

Even darts is a sport, despite also being a game:

https://youtu.be/Q5wjNaQOhYI?si=Cubo8vNsk5XNsgbf

[CarbShark]

SPORT | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

sport noun (GAME)
 
a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job

Personally, I don't believe chess needs physical effort. Maybe darts, but that's a stretch.

[Guillermo]

SPORT | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

sport noun (GAME)
 
a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job

Personally, I don't believe chess needs physical effort. Maybe darts, but that's a stretch.

I wonder, is it: "(a game, competition, or activity) needing physical effort" or "a game, competition, or (activity needing physical effort)"

I believe that the word sport has evolved way past traditional physical sports.