Neuralink (brain implant technology)

Started by stands2reason, December 06, 2023, 07:23:15 AM

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CarbShark

It may change what they decide, but it doesn't change the ability to make reasonable decisions.

We should not treat them like children or less than fully rational adults.

Should they be allowed assisted suicide? Or to refuse treatment?

As an example, when my uncle's cancer returned he refused potentially life-prolonging chemo. Should someone else have made that decision for him?

He also signed up for clinical studies of spinal cord injury repair studies. Should he have been considered incompetent to make that decision? (He wasn't eligible due to the cancer)
There are more atoms of hydrogen in a single molecule of water than there are stars in the entire solar system.

Harry Black

Where did I say that they are incompetent?
Or that we should treat them like children?
I have concerns about Musks honesty and the way he pressures employees to break rules and lie.
That has a direct impact on the approval or not for human trials.
And if trials are approved when information is witheld or distorted then those people cannot make an informed decision and a large percentage of people may be tempted to take a chance on a cure.
This is why ethics boards exist in the first place.
Musks involvement should be a massive red flag. And Musks existence should be cause for pause with regards to other start up style health care companies because these leaders are unaccountable and unvetted beyond their level of investment and capital which assumes a level of competence and intelligence which is clearly not correlating to reality.

CarbShark

Quote from: Harry Black on December 07, 2023, 10:21:40 PMWhere did I say that they are incompetent?

Quote from: Harry Black on December 07, 2023, 12:54:38 PMHaving literally any massive incentive and difficult choice about quality of life vs safety affects ones reasoning ability.
Quote from: Harry Black on December 07, 2023, 05:17:03 AMBecause their situation is so awful that they cannot be expected to realistically evaluate the risk.


QuoteI have concerns about Musks honesty and the way he pressures employees to break rules and lie.
That has a direct impact on the approval or not for human trials.
And if trials are approved when information is witheld or distorted then those people cannot make an informed decision and a large percentage of people may be tempted to take a chance on a cure.
This is why ethics boards exist in the first place.

That's very different. Of course, if they are misled or lied to they cannot make an informed decision.


QuoteMusks involvement should be a massive red flag.

Because he's anti-semitic? or because he ruined twitter? or because he's an all around ass?

If he can get the same kind of results as when he took over Space X or Tesla, that would be great and that's a risk any quadriplegic would be eager to take.
There are more atoms of hydrogen in a single molecule of water than there are stars in the entire solar system.

arthwollipot

Quote from: CarbShark on December 08, 2023, 02:47:56 AMBecause he's anti-semitic? or because he ruined twitter? or because he's an all around ass?

Yes.
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird shit

- Seth Meyers

daniel1948

Quote from: CarbShark on December 08, 2023, 02:47:56 AM
Quote from: Harry Black on December 07, 2023, 10:21:40 PM... Musks involvement should be a massive red flag.

Because he's anti-semitic? or because he ruined twitter? or because he's an all around ass?

Because he's dishonest. An ethics board needs reliable information to assess the ethics of a proposed experimental protocol. Given his history, Musk can be expected to lie about the results of earlier experiments (making the tech seem more promising than it is) and he can be expected to lie about the experimental protocols that will be used. He can also be expected to lie to potential volunteers about the prospects of success.
"You say you love your children above all else, and yet you are stealing their future in front of their very eyes."
-- Greta Thunberg

Harry Black

Or more likely, pressure scientists to lie on his behalf.
Hopefully they would not, but no research on anything should go ahead while he has influence on it.
Anything he discovers is likely to be used for his own benefit rather than mankinds anyway, like we saw with his manipulation of regulations to suit himself and undermine competition with Tesla, at the cost of making EVs more easily accessible.

daniel1948

Quote from: Harry Black on December 08, 2023, 10:05:19 AMOr more likely, pressure scientists to lie on his behalf.
Hopefully they would not, but no research on anything should go ahead while he has influence on it.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Harry Black on December 08, 2023, 10:05:19 AMAnything he discovers is likely to be used for his own benefit rather than mankinds anyway ...

That's not Musk. That's capitalism. Everything anybody discovers, they do their best to profit from it to the exclusion of others. That's what patents are all about. From junk foods to gadgets to drugs, they're all developed for profit, not for the benefit of humanity. If Musk were to drop out and let some other company develop brain implants, they would do it to profit by it. Any benefit to humanity is just collateral.
"You say you love your children above all else, and yet you are stealing their future in front of their very eyes."
-- Greta Thunberg

Harry Black

I agree. Thats why I think there should be more investment from the public side and much tighter regulation on what form the private industry is allowed to participate in things like this.
But thats not going to happen, especially not in this instance. I do think that Musk is worse than other capitalists to the extent that he should be more closely scrutinised though.
Gates is probably nearly as bad I guess, he just has better PR and people arent as inclined to look closer at him as he is a boring nerd who seems superficially pleasant.

daniel1948

Quote from: Harry Black on December 08, 2023, 12:21:11 PMI agree. Thats why I think there should be more investment from the public side and much tighter regulation on what form the private industry is allowed to participate in things like this.
But thats not going to happen, especially not in this instance. I do think that Musk is worse than other capitalists to the extent that he should be more closely scrutinised though.
Gates is probably nearly as bad I guess, he just has better PR and people arent as inclined to look closer at him as he is a boring nerd who seems superficially pleasant.

I don't know what it's like in Ireland, but in the U.S. when the government funds research, they give it to industry to profit from, and even, when they want something, the government will pay private companies inflated prices to build stuff that the government developed, as if the government hadn't created the tech in the first place.

Lincoln described the government as being "Of the people, by the people, and for the people." In fact, it was a government of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich. With the evolution of modern capitalism it has become a government of big business, by big business, and for big business.
"You say you love your children above all else, and yet you are stealing their future in front of their very eyes."
-- Greta Thunberg

CarbShark

Quote from: daniel1948 on December 08, 2023, 01:01:04 PMI don't know what it's like in Ireland, but in the U.S. when the government funds research, they give it to industry to profit from, and even, when they want something, the government will pay private companies inflated prices to build stuff that the government developed, as if the government hadn't created the tech in the first place.

Not exactly. Direct US Government research is made publicly available to anyone, and any corporation can compete for government contracts.

Indirect Government funded research, mostly through universities is handled differently and the universities can get ownership and patents.
There are more atoms of hydrogen in a single molecule of water than there are stars in the entire solar system.