Economic systems

Started by Quetzalcoatl, December 26, 2022, 10:31:52 AM

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Harry Black

The nordic model is about as good as it gets under capitalism.

But show me something that addresses the things I have actually voiced in this thread and I dont care what you call it, I will support it.
I am not aware of any nordic country that does so though.

gmalivuk

#1531
Quote from: Quetzalcoatl on February 12, 2024, 01:01:27 PM
Quote from: gmalivuk on February 11, 2024, 02:55:29 PM
QuoteAnd neither am I talking about some laissez-faire capitalist economic system with a night-watchman state. Yet you keep pretending that I am, because you don't want to engage with what I actually think, but prefer attacking a strawman.
It's rich of you to act as though we're the ones making strawmen, when you have yet to indicate anything above a kindergarten-level reading comprehension of any leftist position ever expressed in this thread, or pretty much any other that I can think of at the moment.

You've made clear what you're talking about, as have we. Feel free to extend us the same courtesy you demand and start responding to the actual positions we've each expressed (which are not identical to one another, by the way).
Gibberish.
Just because you don't understand or want to talk about something doesn't make it gibberish.

Quetzalcoatl

Quote from: Harry Black on February 12, 2024, 01:23:29 PMThe nordic model is about as good as it gets under capitalism.

But show me something that addresses the things I have actually voiced in this thread and I dont care what you call it, I will support it.
I am not aware of any nordic country that does so though.

That it why I wrote fairly or somewhat close to it. But then from your post it seems to be the case that you would like some left-wing economic reforms rather than a wholesale change of the economic system. Is that correct?
"I'm a member of no party. I have no ideology. I'm a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that's all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

gmalivuk

#1533
That may be a place where Rai and I go farther than Harry. Whatever (good and important) internal things a country does to improve the lives of its own citizens and residents, numerous global issues with the current system remain and are incompatible with continued human civilization.

But of course you've barely ever acknowledged our arguments, let alone engaged honestly with any of them.

Harry Black

Quote from: Quetzalcoatl on February 12, 2024, 04:41:46 PM
Quote from: Harry Black on February 12, 2024, 01:23:29 PMThe nordic model is about as good as it gets under capitalism.

But show me something that addresses the things I have actually voiced in this thread and I dont care what you call it, I will support it.
I am not aware of any nordic country that does so though.

That it why I wrote fairly or somewhat close to it. But then from your post it seems to be the case that you would like some left-wing economic reforms rather than a wholesale change of the economic system. Is that correct?
You could describe it as that.

What you see in capitalist countries of all sorts is capital trying to influence policy to reduce costs and maximise profits.
I want a system whereby this is impossible in a meaningful way. It will always be a priority of business and I support people being able to own small businesses but no entity should grow to a point that it can influence policy or undermine labour.

Co-ops exist but I want to see worker ownership in businesses over a certain size, nationalisation for essential things like housing, health, education, transport, energy, legal services etc.
I also want generational wealth to cease to exist.

I think a society like that could look VERY similar to what we have now.

arthwollipot

No personal attacks please - from anyone.
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird shit

- Seth Meyers

Harry Black

Quote from: gmalivuk on February 12, 2024, 04:58:15 PMThat may be a place where Rai and I go farther than Harry. Whatever (good and important) internal things a country does to improve the lives of its own citizens and residents, numerous global issues with the current system remain and are incompatible with continued human civilization.

But of course you've barely ever acknowledged our arguments, let alone engaged honestly with any of them.
I dont think I ultimately disagree with you.
But I think specific democratic changes are how we get there. If we can remove the things that create the most inequality and allow for money to count as extra votes when lobbying, I think society in general would be less flooded with misinformation and people would be better educated.
The we could start making informed decisions as a society and move towards more humane and sustainable systems of living.

Without removing those barriers, nothing is going to happen because even successful revolution is a disaster in the aftermath.

Edit-
Would be nice to discuss/debate this a bit from the shared view that the current system is unacceptable.

gmalivuk

Quote from: Harry Black on February 12, 2024, 06:15:42 PM
Quote from: gmalivuk on February 12, 2024, 04:58:15 PMThat may be a place where Rai and I go farther than Harry. Whatever (good and important) internal things a country does to improve the lives of its own citizens and residents, numerous global issues with the current system remain and are incompatible with continued human civilization.

But of course you've barely ever acknowledged our arguments, let alone engaged honestly with any of them.
I dont think I ultimately disagree with you.
But I think specific democratic changes are how we get there. If we can remove the things that create the most inequality and allow for money to count as extra votes when lobbying, I think society in general would be less flooded with misinformation and people would be better educated.
The we could start making informed decisions as a society and move towards more humane and sustainable systems of living.

Without removing those barriers, nothing is going to happen because even successful revolution is a disaster in the aftermath.

Edit-
Would be nice to discuss/debate this a bit from the shared view that the current system is unacceptable.
Yeah, I think your suggestions are good and possibly necessary for any of the broader things I've been talking about in most of this thread.

Harry Black

I do think we are doomed. I dont think my suggestions would yield results in time to save us.
I just dont think I have seen acceptable alternatives.

Harry Black

Had an interesting conversation with a friend yesterday.
We both know multiple people who tried to get into medical school but had law as their second choice.
Or vice versa.

Neither of us know anyone who applied for either course and took nursing or legal secretary as their second choices.

I also do not know anyone from a wealthy background who does, for example, council work (sewage, waste disposal, road works etc).
We seem to have a rising floor for the children of people in certain social classes (which Im assured do not exist outside the UK or other monarchistic countries) which implies to me that most of the countries I am aware of, are not actual meritocracies (shocking, I know.)

Anyone wanting to claim that they live in an equal and fair society would need to show me an equal distribution of rich kids across menial jobs and trades (carpentry, electrician, plumber etc) or I would call bullshit.
If anyone knows of a country that does have such a distribution, I would be grateful so I can have a look and see what policies to recommend to my local representatives.

arthwollipot

Reports of the death of the class system have been greatly exaggerated.
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird shit

- Seth Meyers